Okay, here is something to start a discussion in the spirit of reexamining things.  Basically, I’m trying to make an argument for reinstating the old four level system and here is why:

When I first started in KM about 12 years ago there were these four basic levels:  LV1 for beginners/white belts, LV2 yellow belts, LV3 (and that was the big difference) orange and green belts training together, then LV4 for blue belts and above.

A few years later, this was changed to the five level system that is in place now, with the first two levels being the same, but LV3 being only orange belt, LV4 green belts and LV5 blue belt and above.

As a student having experienced both I much prefer the four level system.  Here are my reasons:

With the four level system - and orange and green belts training together - weapons defenses are being introduced at a much earlier stage, only about 8 months or so after the student first starts his training.  This has several advantages:

First of all, it provides the student with a new challenge.  No matter how much fun LV1 and LV2 are (and the new skills that they provide), after a total of eight months (or longer, depending on when the tests are being held), students might have become somewhat accustomed to the classes and might lose a bit of interest.  Even the best program can get boring after a while.  And so, if LV3 doesn’t look much different from LV2 (in other words, similar punch combinations/drills and only a few new techniques) there really doesn’t seem to be any good reason for students to aspire to go on to that next level.  Weapons defenses, on the other hand, will provide them with a brand new challenge.  It’s something totally different from what they have experienced so far and really looks like a big step up, a level they can’t wait to train for and reach (I remember how I used to eagerly watch LV3 classes, while waiting for my LV1 or LV2 to start).  And they will be well enough prepared, as LV1 and LV2 provide them with all of the basic combatives they will need.

Another important point is that, if students start working on these defenses earlier, they will have almost a year of additional training time to become proficient at them, so that, by the time they will be tested, they will likely be very clean with all of their techniques and truly ready for blue belt.

Then there is the matter of availability of advanced classes.  In a four level system, there will naturally be many more classes in which weapons defenses will be taught, because there will be more students there to train in them (orange belt and above).  After the five level system was introduced, the number of weapons classes fell sharply and soon there were relatively few students left in LV4 and LV5, compared to the total number of students enrolled at the entire gym.  That meant that only a small number of active students ever got to see KM weapons defenses, despite the fact that these defenses comprise such a large and integral part of the system (so much so that Imi’s whole book is chiefly about them).

Also, for prospective new students taking a tour of the gym and whose main interest – either out of necessity or curiosity - are the weapons defenses, it might be somewhat discouraging to hear that it will take close to two years to actually get to the level of learning them. It will sound like an eternity and, as a result, some may not sign up at all.  Others may sign up but lose interest at some point, either dropping out or shifting their interest to the cardio or fighting classes (and maybe try another system for the weapons stuff).  These are the customers who would want to learn Krav Maga mainly for reasons of self-defense and it would be too bad to lose some of them.  If, however, they will instead be told that they will learn weapons defenses within about 8 months, it will sound like a much more reasonable amount of time to them.

These are just some thoughts.  Again, I have experienced both and can’t really think of a single advantage the five level system would offer over the four level one.  If the argument is that it gives higher level students better quality training, because it will be only green belts in LV4, that would be deceptive, because any new green belt will be new to weapons defenses as well and would thus, theoretically, slow down the more experienced people who have been training in LV4 for a while.  There would be no difference between that and a brand new orange belt attending his first weapons-oriented LV3 class under a four level system.  Plus, the total training time per week for weapons defenses will go down dramatically if there are five levels and that will hurt – rather than help – advanced students.

I’d be interested to hear everyone’s experiences and opinions on this.

I just took a look at the new Focus handbook and saw that average training times have changed a little since I first started training.  It’s now a year for someone to get to orange belt (4 months LV1, 8 months LV2).  Then 12 more months to get to green.  So, that would mean that a new orange belt with one year of experience should definitely be ready to try something new (such as weapons). In a five level system, however, it would take two years or more to get to the same advanced techniques.

We went away from the “multi-level” class because the training was getting all mixed up and people weren’t clear on what they needed for a blue, or brown, test.  I am actually thinking of implementing a “weapons” class at Focus so people of all levels can see the advanced material.

A weapons class would be a great idea.  I think that weapons defenses are an integral part of the system (and of self-defense in general) and it would be important to make them accessible to any student who wants to learn them.

As for the four-level system, again my two main points in favor were that with longer training time students’ proficiency would increase and thus they’d be better prepared for the test.  If they are confused, they shouldn’t be, as the levels are explained in detail in the students’ handbook.

Secondly, there is always a chance that someone might actually need to use one of these defenses in real life.  The sooner they start to train in them, the sooner they have a defense available to them if they should ever need one.

Also, I think, practicing weapons defenses would help to retain students’ interest in the system and entice them to train on to higher levels.  There is so much great stuff to work on at those levels, the regular gun/knife/stick defenses, off-angle attacks with weapons, defending in different environments and from different positions, hostage situations, improvised weapons, third party defenses, multiple attackers with and without weapons, weapon vs weapon – so many things to work on and, generally, so little time, but if more students continue their training up to these higher levels, then there can be more classes and thus more training and more new students watching that training, getting excited about it and wanting to join in, making Focus and Alliance schools the place to train for the most passionate of KM students.

We have also eliminated the multi level classes. While they are great as far as class size and energy, they hinder the learning process for the advanced half of the class. The large pool of techniques in a multi level class also makes it impossible to track curriculum and insure that students are being taught the techniques that they will be seeing at their next level test. A much better solution has been the addition of specific weapons, ground, and fight classes that operate outside the ongoing class curriculums. This has the dual effect of allowing advanced students to learn appropriate level techniques as they promote, while also allowing newer students to learn more advanced techniques without slowing down the pace of the advanced class. Additional benefits have included better student retention, better tracking of curriculum, and a more polished advanced student.

I suppose a special weapons only class could be a good alternative solution.  My main concern is that, under a five-level system, it would take so long to get to more advanced material that a number of students might drop out or switch to other programs (such as fight or cardio), before they will ever get to see these things and they might never even know what they are missing out on.

There are actually not too many new things to learn in Level 3 – two leftover bearhugs, hair grabs (relatively easy to learn and not relevant for bald people or those with short hair), then there’s some stuff on the ground.  Good stuff, but not necessarily radically different from what students have done so far, so it doesn’t provide that new challenge in their training that they might be looking for after a year or so of taking classes.

I guess the switch to the five-level system was originally thought to benefit the advanced students, but, as an advanced student at the time of the switch, my experience was that, in the end, the switch resulted in far fewer advanced classes and far less training time for me in the things I most wanted to work on.  I also saw fewer KM students ever reaching LV4 and above, meaning that a great number of students training in KM never got to reach that level and thus never got to see the more advanced techinques.  It’s sad, because simple weapons defenses are only the beginning – there is so much more down the road, multiple attackers with various weapons, third party defenses, car jacking, rifles, weapon vs weapon – lots of stuff many students will never get to see and even the advanced students that remain will not be able to train in them much, as the number of classes in which these things will be taught are going to be greatly reduced.

As for new people coming in and holding back the more advanced students, it’s a problem, but, technically, this same problem could occur in any class, at any level.  For example, you might have a great weapons class going, with a number of students who have seen all basic weapons defenses from all angles, but then there might be a few newcomers joining the class, who have never seen a weapons defense before and those might hold the more advanced students back.  Or even in LV1 you could have a number of people who have trained for 3 months mixed in with a couple of newbies.

So, to sum it up, whether it’s special weapons classes or introducing weapons in lower levels, I think giving students the chance to work with weapons early would be beneficial.  It would retain their interest and passion for the system and I think after a couple of months of training they should definitely be ready – we just worked on gun from behind in LV2 yesterday, just as a special treat, but the students there were doing very well, considering it was their first time practicing this defense.  They asked a lot of questions and overall seemed very interested and they were only LV2, still a few months removed from orange belt and LV3.  Once they actually get to LV3, I think they would definitely be ready to more permanently train in these things.

For what it is worth here are my thoughts.  I too feel that many people are drawn to Krav Maga because of the weapons.  It is hard not to teach some of them beascuse it keeps them wanting to continue training.  I think a four level system sounds grerat.  I typically tell students that weapons are down the road and they always feel discouraged.  i know that basics are needed before getting too involved with weapons however, many students may not stick around long enough to get to that point.  I think a multi-level weapons class would be a great idea and would meet the needs of our students more.

just my thoughts

I’d agree that students usually like the idea of weapons training.  I’ve also seen some fellow students get disappointed or even leave when they thought there wasn’t enough of it (or it would take too long to get there).

The goal is to retain students, but it seems that somewhere between LV3 and LV4 a lot of students are losing interest and are either leaving altogether, or switch to other programs (such as fight or cardio), because they feel as though there are not really being challenged anymore.  While the typical LV3 class has at least 15 students in them (or more), the typical LV4 class has only about 6, even though there are four times as many LV3 classes available, on average.  So, something seems to be happening between LV3 and LV4 that makes some students lose interest and, if so, it would be important to design a LV3 class that would keep things exciting for them.  Weapons training would be perfect, whether its done in a four-level or five-level system or through special weapons classes open to all, but I think officially starting this kind of training in LV3 would make a big difference.  Also, with more students knowing a greater number of defenses, more intense drills could be designed and done.

Weapons only class!  what a fine idea.  I’m going to try that out!

Cool, looks like James has already scheduled a weapons class at his gym.  Let’s get one at Focus!  How about Thursdays?